Vistronic’s Weblog

January 23, 2008

Creatio ex nihilo

Filed under: Creation — vistronic @ 9:48 pm

Creatio ex nihilo, meaning creation out of nothing.
Creatio ex materia, which is creation out of eternally preexistent matter.
Creatio ex deo, which is creation out of the being of God.

In examining the scriptures with a 21st century viewpoint “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” the question is put forth, from what was creation?

The traditional view being God created the universe “Creatio ex nihilo” or out of nothing.
Current progressive creationists have interpolated “the big bang” at this moment to consider with the creation moment. A common presentation put forth by creationists in support of creation (myself included) is the second law of thermodynamics. Therefore if we are to adopt the second law the first law should be applicable as well.  The law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.

Here we see the paradox then. If we adapt these laws as a guide, the creation moment becomes “energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another” Creatio ex materia. Therefore it appears reasonable that to use the 2nd law, the 1st law should be used likewise.

 A review of the “laws” maybe helpful at this point.

“”Zeroth law of thermodynamics, stating that thermodynamic equilibrium is an equivalence relation. If two thermodynamic systems are separately in thermal equilibrium with a third, they are also in thermal equilibrium with each other.

First law of thermodynamics, about the conservation of energy
The change in the internal energy of a closed thermodynamic system is equal to the sum of the amount of heat energy supplied to the system and the work done on the system.

Second law of thermodynamics, about entropy
The total entropy of any isolated thermodynamic system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value.

Third law of thermodynamics, about absolute zero temperature
As a system asymptotically approaches absolute zero of temperature all processes virtually cease and the entropy of the system asymptotically approaches a minimum value; also stated as: “the entropy of all systems and of all states of a system is zero at absolute zero” or equivalently “it is impossible to reach the absolute zero of temperature by any finite number of processes”. “” * (source wiki)

First off let me state that these laws apply to closed thermodynamic systems, is Creation a closed thermodynamic system? Well thats open for debate. But we shall extrapolate these laws into our current example.

This is important for several reasons. “Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.  Therefore, the universe must have a cause. philosophy that states before there was anything, there was nothing, and if there was nothing, then it must have been possible for nothing to be. If it is possible for nothing to be, then it must be possible for everything to be. Something cannot arise from nothing; this is a contradiction. Therefore there must always have been something. But it is scientifically impossible for matter to always have existed. What is more, matter is contingent, that is it is not logically impossible for it not to exist, and nothing else depends on it. So there must have been a Creator who is not contingent and not composed of matter: this Being is God.”*

It appears that 3 options now become viable to consider from a creationist viewpoint.

1. Creatio ex nihilo, The traditional view but if we adopt this we should drop or modify the “second law” arguments IMHO.

2. Creatio ex materia, The transformation of matter or energy to a different form. I currently lean this way as I view God as “timeless”. I also speculate that there existed pre-existing forms, the thoughts or words of God that were expressed at the creation moment creating our universe.

3. Creatio ex deo, which is creation out of the being of God. This also has scriptural support and is worth contemplating.

So my friends is it Door number one, two or three!

(:
Vis.

some material edited from,
* (source wiki)

January 22, 2008

Timeline

Filed under: Creation — vistronic @ 10:41 pm

Biblicial Timeline and historicial prespective.

5315 BC -In 1996 the earth 7311 years old according to the Septuagint.
4000 BC – (5792-4862 ) Creation week.
3761 BC – Ancient Jewish scholars calculated that the world began
– The fall
2344 BC – (3536 BC) The Flood 100 years after Flood tower of Babel.
2100 BC Abram (later renamed Abraham) moves from Ur to Canaan.
1900 BC Jacob’s son Joseph is sold into Egyptian slavery.
1500 BC The Israelites become slaves of Egypt.
1450 BC Moses leads the Israelites from Egypt and through the Red Sea.
1410 BC Joshua leads next generation of Israelites into Canaan.
1375 BC Beginning of time of Judges. For three hundred years
1050 BC Kingdom of Israel is established. Saul is Israel’s first king.
1010 BC David becomes Israel’s king.
970 BC David’s son Solomon becomes Israel’s king.
959 BC The Jerusalem temple is completed by Solomon.
930 BC Solomon’s son Rehoboam becomes king. Kingdom splits
860 BC Elijah brings down fire from heaven.
820 BC Jonah and the whale
750 BC Isaiah accurately predicts the Messiah
722 BC Israel falls to Assyria. The southern kingdom of Judah still stands.
586 BC Ezekiel accurately predicts Tyre’s destruction
586 BC Judah falls to Babylon. The temple is destroyed.
Jews are exiled to Babylon.
Daniel serves in Babylon court and later in Persian court.
539 BC Babylon falls to Persia.Jews to return and rebuild Jerusalem.
516 BC The temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem.
460 BC Esther made queen of Persia.
430 BC Malachi writes the last book of the Old Testament.

6-4 BC Jesus Christ of Nazareth is born.
BC- Before Christ, an epoch based on the traditionally reckoned year of the conception or birth of Jesus of Nazareth
AD-1* “Anno Domini” is Latin for “in the year of Our Lord” Traditional Birth of Jesus
27 AD Jesus travels preaching the good news.
30 AD Jesus executed by the Romans,
Three days later God raises him from the dead.
35 AD Saul becomes Paul.
70 AD Romans destroy Jerusalem & the 2nd Temple
95 AD John writes the book of Revelations

2,000 yrs (Church Age)

1948 AD Nation of Israel Reborn.

1967 AD Israel regains Jerusalem.

Rapture (removal) of true Christians from earth to heaven
Tribulation Period Over several years
European Anti-Christ signs Middle East Peace Pact with Israel,
7 Year Peace Treaty
The Second Coming
The risen Jesus Christ returns (rapture)

The Millennium Reign.
1000 years.
Satan is thrown into the lake of burning Fire.
All people are judged.
New heaven and a new earth.

 Common usage omits year zero. This creates a problem with some scientific calculations. Accordingly, in astronomical year numbering, a zero year is added before 1 AD, and the ‘AD’ and ‘BC’ designation is dropped. In keeping with ‘standard decimal numbering’, a minus sign ‘−’ is added for years before year zero: so counting down from year 2 would give 2, 1, 0, −1, −2, and so on. This results in a one-year shift between the two systems (eg −1 equals 2 BC).[15]

Sources:

http://www.mustardseed.net/timeline/timeline8.html
http://www.geocities.com/truedino/bible.htm
http://www.bible.ca/b-bible-timeline-history.htm
http://www.kjvbible.org/theworlds.html
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/age_universe_030103.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
http://www.setterfield.org/ageimplications.htm
http://www.setterfield.org/ccchron/chronbarry.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_the_date_of_Creation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_E17_s

One point being as Henry Morris correctly observed:
Thus the Biblical chronology is about a million times shorter than the evolutionary chronology. A million-fold mistake is no small matter, and Biblical scholars surely need to give primary attention to resolving this tremendous discrepancy right at the very foundation of our entire Biblical cosmology. This is not a peripheral issue that can be dismissed with some exegetical twist, but is central to the very integrity of scriptural theology (1984, p. 115).

R.L. Wysong addressed another (VALID) point in his book, The Creation-Evolution Controversy, when he wrote:

Both evolutionists and creationists believe evolution is an impossibility if the universe is only a few thousand years old. There probably is no statement that could be made on the topic of origins which would meet with so much agreement from both sides. Setting aside the question of whether vast time is competent to propel evolution, we must query if vast time is indeed available (1976, p. 144).

Vistronic
2/16/2004 6:19 PM 9 out of 51

Morris’s book BTW

Morris, Henry M. (1984), The Biblical Basis for Modern Science (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker).

The only indication of the time at which the Tower of Babel was erected, we find in the name of Phaleg (Genesis 11:10-17), the grandnephew of Heber; this places the date somewhere between 101 and 870 years after the Flood. The limits are so unsatisfactory, because the Greek Version differs in its numbers from the Massoretic text.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15005b.htm

An adjustment will be made to the timeline.
Vis.

Godlesspagan
2/16/2004 8:56 PM 23 out of 51

Evolutionary Timeline:

4600 Formation of the approximately homogeneous solid Earth by planetesimal accretion
4300 Melting of the Earth due to radioactive and gravitational heating which leads to its differentiated interior structure as well as outgassing of molecules such as water, methane, ammonia, hydrogen, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide
4300 Atmospheric water is photodissociated by ultraviolet light to give oxygen atoms which are incorporated into an ozone layer and hydrogen molecules which escape into space
4000 Bombardment of the Earth by planetesimals stops
3800 The Earth’s crust solidifies–formation of the oldest rocks found on Earth
3800 Condensation of atmospheric water into oceans
3500-2800 Prokaryotic cell organisms develop
3500-2800 Beginning of photosynthesis by blue-green algae which releases oxygen molecules into the atmosphere and steadily works to strengthen the ozone layer and change the Earth’s chemically reducing atmosphere into a chemically oxidizing one
2400 Rise in the concentration of oxygen molecules stops the deposition of uraninites (since they are soluble when combined with oxygen) and starts the deposition of banded iron formations
2000 The Oklo natural fission reactor in Gabon goes into operation
1600 The last reserves of reduced iron are used up by the increasing atmospheric oxygen–last banded iron formations
1500 Eukaryotic cell organisms develop
1500-600 Rise of multicellular organisms
580-545 Fossils of Ediacaran organisms are made
545 Cambrian explosion of hard-bodied organisms
528-526 Fossilization of the Chengjiang site
517-515 Fossilization of the Burgess Shale
500-450 Rise of the fish–first vertebrates
430 Waxy coated algae begin to live on land
420 Millipedes have evolved–first land animals
375 The Appalachian mountains are formed via a plate tectonic collision between North America, Africa, and Europe
375 Appearance of primitive sharks
350-300 Rise of the amphibians
350 Primitive insects have evolved
350 Primitive ferns evolve–first plants with roots
300-200 Rise of the reptiles
300 Winged insects have evolved
280 Beetles and weevils have evolved
250 Permian period mass extinction
230 Roaches and termites have evolved
225 Modern ferns have evolved
225 Bees have evolved
200 Pangaea starts to break apart
200 Primitive crocodiles have evolved
200 Appearance of mammals
145 Archaeopteryx walks the Earth
136 Primitive kangaroos have evolved
100 Primitive cranes have evolved
90 Modern sharks have evolved
65 K-T Boundary–extinction of the dinosaurs and beginning of the reign of mammals
60 Rats, mice, and squirrels have evolved
60 Herons and storks have evolved
55 Rabbits and hares have evolved
50 Primitive monkeys have evolved
28 Koalas have evolved
20 Parrots and pigeons have evolved
20-12 The chimpanzee and hominid lines evolve
10-4 Ramapithecus exist
4 Development of hominid bipedalism
4-1 Australopithecus exist
3.5 The Australopithecus Lucy walks the Earth
2 Widespread use of stone tools
2-0.01 Most recent ice age
1.6-0.2 Homo erectus exist
1-0.5 Homo erectus tames fire
0.3 Geminga supernova explosion at a distance of roughly 60 pc–roughly as bright as the Moon
0.2-0.03 Homo sapiens neanderthalensis exist
0.05-0 Homo sapiens sapiens exist
0.04-0.012 Homo sapiens sapiens enter Australia from southeastern Asia and North America from northeastern Asia
0.025-0.01 Most recent glaciation–an ice sheet covers much of the northern United States
0.02 Homo sapiens sapiens paint the Altamira Cave
0.012 Homo sapiens sapiens have domesticated dogs in Kirkuk, Iraq
0.01 First permanent Homo sapiens sapiens settlements
0.01 Homo sapiens sapiens learn to use fire to cast copper and harden pottery
0.006 Writing is developed in Sumeria

MyLifeAsHenry
2/16/2004 9:22 PM 27 out of 51

Vis,

Here’s a few miscellaneous items related to writing for your to use if you want. All dates are approximate, and please feel free to correct any errors found.

8,500 BC Inscribed clay tokens used for trading
3,300 BC Oldest writting, Summeria
3,100 BC Egyptian Hieroglyphic
2,600 BC Ink invented (China)
1,500 BC Veda, Sanskrit
1,200 BC oldest Chinese writing
1,199 BC oldest Hebrew
500 BC Oldest book, made out of gold

500 AD Oldest written English
1454 AD Gutenberg Bible
adam930
2/17/2004 5:23 AM 38 out of 51

Vis, all the dates on GodlessPagan’s timeline are given in millions of years ago.

MyLifeAsHenry’s date of 8500 BC would be written as “0.0105” (8500+2000 divided by 1 million). As you can plainly see from GLP’s post, MyLifeAsHenry’s date is the least of yor problems…
adam930
2/17/2004 5:45 AM 39 out of 51

Here is GodlessPagan’s timeline, converted to Biblical dates through my “Genesis Cubic Formula”:
(all times given in biblical hours before the beginning of Day 7)

Day 2 (120 to 96 hours before Day 7):

99 Formation of the approximately homogeneous solid Earth by planetesimal accretion
97 Melting of the Earth due to radioactive and gravitational heating which leads to its differentiated interior structure as well as outgassing of molecules such as water, methane, ammonia, hydrogen, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide
97 Atmospheric water is photodissociated by ultraviolet light to give oxygen atoms which are incorporated into an ozone layer and hydrogen molecules which escape into space

Day 3 (96 to 72 hours before Day 7):

95 Bombardment of the Earth by planetesimals stops
93 The Earth’s crust solidifies–formation of the oldest rocks found on Earth
93 Condensation of atmospheric water into oceans
91-84 Prokaryotic cell organisms develop
91-84 Beginning of photosynthesis by blue-green algae which releases oxygen molecules into the atmosphere and steadily works to strengthen the ozone layer and change the Earth’s chemically reducing atmosphere into a chemically oxidizing one
79 Rise in the concentration of oxygen molecules stops the deposition of uraninites (since they are soluble when combined with oxygen) and starts the deposition of banded iron formations
75 The Oklo natural fission reactor in Gabon goes into operation

Day 4 (72 to 48 hours before Day 7):

70 The last reserves of reduced iron are used up by the increasing atmospheric oxygen–last banded iron formations
68 Eukaryotic cell organisms develop
68-50 Rise of multicellular organisms
50-49 Fossils of Ediacaran organisms are made
49 Cambrian explosion of hard-bodied organisms

Day 5 (48 to 24 hours before Day 7):

48 Fossilization of the Chengjiang site
48 Fossilization of the Burgess Shale
47-46 Rise of the fish–first vertebrates
45 Waxy coated algae begin to live on land
45 Millipedes have evolved–first land animals
43 The Appalachian mountains are formed via a plate tectonic collision between North America, Africa, and Europe
43 Appearance of primitive sharks
42-40 Rise of the amphibians
42 Primitive insects have evolved
42 Primitive ferns evolve–first plants with roots
40-35 Rise of the reptiles
40 Winged insects have evolved
39 Beetles and weevils have evolved
37 Permian period mass extinction
36 Roaches and termites have evolved
36 Modern ferns have evolved
36 Bees have evolved
35 Pangaea starts to break apart
35 Primitive crocodiles have evolved
35 Appearance of mammals
31 Archaeopteryx walks the Earth
31 Primitive kangaroos have evolved
28 Primitive cranes have evolved
27 Modern sharks have evolved

adam930
2/17/2004 5:46 AM 40 out of 51

Day 6 (24 to 0 hours before Day 7):

24 K-T Boundary–extinction of the dinosaurs and beginning of the reign of mammals
23 Rats, mice, and squirrels have evolved
23 Herons and storks have evolved
23 Rabbits and hares have evolved
22 Primitive monkeys have evolved
18 Koalas have evolved
16 Parrots and pigeons have evolved
16-14 The chimpanzee and hominid lines evolve
13-10 Ramapithecus exist
11 Development of hominid bipedalism
10-6 Australopithecus exist
9 The Australopithecus Lucy walks the Earth
8 Widespread use of stone tools
8-1 Most recent ice age
7-3.5 Homo erectus exist
6-5 Homo erectus tames fire
4 Geminga supernova explosion at a distance of roughly 60 pc–roughly as bright as the Moon
3.5-2 Homo sapiens neanderthalensis exist
2-present day Homo sapiens sapiens exist
2-1.1 Homo sapiens sapiens enter Australia from southeastern Asia and North America from northeastern Asia
1.7-1.0 Most recent glaciation–an ice sheet covers much of the northern United States
1.6 Homo sapiens sapiens paint the Altamira Cave
1.1 Homo sapiens sapiens have domesticated dogs in Kirkuk, Iraq
1 First permanent Homo sapiens sapiens settlements
1 Homo sapiens sapiens learn to use fire to cast copper and harden pottery

Day 7 and beyond:

4000 BC – Writing is developed in Sumeria

adam930
2/17/2004 5:56 AM 41 out of 51

An important note:

Some of the Biblical dates in the above timeline are obviously a little off. For example, the Cambrian Explosion clearly took place on Day 5, while the above timeline places it at the end of Day 4.

I’ve intentionally left these disperncies between GLP’s data and Genesis, for the sake of scientific honesty and objectivity. Obviously, my model predicts that the dates GLP gave for these troublesome events would be revised when further evidence comes in…
MyLifeAsHenry
2/17/2004 10:28 PM 45 out of 51

“You’re not referring to Joseph Smith’s alleged golden plates from the Angel Moroni are you? If not, I am quite curious to which book you are referring. ”

Oops, I didn’t see this before. Sorry I didn’t respond earlier.

From: http://www.antique-antiques.com/old-books-worlds-oldest-book.shtml

“The world’s oldest book in the history of mankind written in Etruscan, the language that is now lost, can be seen in Bulgaria’s National Museum of History in Sofia. The rarity consists of 6 pages made of 24-carat gold and fastened together; the pages are covered with text and carry images of a horseman, a mermaid, a lyre and warriors.”

pretzel_ip
2/18/2004 12:20 AM 46 out of 51

I don’t know what constitues a book but the Vedas were written down (by God supposedly, dictated by man (unlike the Bible, ahem)) on leaves which were sown together. I’m pretty sure at least b/c that’s how we portray them in dance (and Bhrathanatyam has not changed in thousands of years) and I have seen a few of these in museams.

pretzel

Vistronic
2/19/2004 11:54 PM 51 out of 51

HAHA Henry.

I am still working on the timeline thank you for your input.
I think it is important to establish some nomenclature of time,
thanks to Muckraker and others.

First lets cover the year aspect,

“”The difference in meaning comes about when it matters if the scientist is referring to elapsed time or time before present. For example:

The last ice age was 12 thousand years ago: 12 ka
The Cambrian began 540 million years ago: 540 Ma
The earth was formed 4.5 billion years ago: 4.5 Ga

OR:

The last ice age lasted for 5 thousand years: 5 kyr
The Miocene epoch was 18 million years long: 18 Myr
The earth is 4.5 billion years old: 4.5 Gyr

The ‘a’ in ‘ka’, ‘Ma’ and ‘Ga’ is shorthand for ‘annum’, Latin for year.
(Funny I thought it was “annus” in my translator???? -Vis)

In that sense, the two sets of terms would seem to mean the same thing, but using the with two separate senses helps differentiate between the two senses of time I mentioned earlier.””

-Says Muckraker

Therefore I think it appropriate to use this terminology for any thing lets say before the yec timeline… at that point I will revert to the standard “BC” “AD” nomenclature.

Why not “BCE” ie before common era?
Well why take God out of the picture?

Vistronic
2/16/2004 5:25 PM

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