Vistronic – Creation – Evolution – Origins of life

January 23, 2008

Church and State

Filed under: Uncategorized — vistronic @ 12:07 am

Vistronic
2/25/2003 9:50 PM 1 out of 1097

The USA is a Christian Country.
The Majority of people in it are Christians.
The World looks at us as a Christian nation.
Most missionarys come from the USA.
Our money says “In God we trust”
Our pledge “one nation under god”
In our schools the Bible was taught for 150 years.
In our schools they had prayer for 150 years.
The founding Fathers were Christian.
The mayflower compact was Christian.
The Bible is the most published Book in USA.

I say that makes us a Christian Nation what do you say?

My post was from birth to now time frame about USA, but I am very glad you posted as I have something to say on this issue. Histroy has been a long road of one country taking over another 1000’s of times. Most often by war or fourse. I am not happy about this it just IS. I would have tried to do it diffrent I hope at least.
I think your post sheds more light on my argument.
What religion was fourced down there throats ?
Even then they were Christians. So called at least.
Christians claiming the land for the future USA.
So it looks like from the beginning Christians were there. I do not condone the tactics but here we stand today. With some blood on our hands lets repent and go on.

I am a little shell shocked that no posts are in support of my view. I think it is fairly main stream.
I would even say I have been holding back.
First I must answer this go read a book thing.
I have a Degree in electronics my GPO was 4.0.
I am working on second Degree my GPO is 3.8.
Last year I took US Histroy 1 and US History 2 my GPO was 4.0. So when you say go read a history book I have.
To imply that anyone who is learned would think diffrent then I do is not a valid statement.
I do make spelling errors, in school I use a lot of spell checking and proof reading but I get the job done. In english 101 I got a 4.0, how? A lot of hard work. I laugh right along with you guys about it so dont worry I have thick skin and I think it is fair play.

Getting back to the subject, In this case the preception of us being a Christian country is correct.
Also the majority should make a difference, is’nt that what voting is about.
Its funny for 150 years the bible was OK in school then one day, its wrong what are we doing. I guess back in the old days they did not understand. It took modern thinking to get it right.
Next time you are in one of our State buildings from the old days look around at the walls and read the many Bible verses. Get out the jack hammers to remove it right? Again I guess they must of been confused about this church and state thing.
I say they knew what they were doing

Fair enough sounds like we are 50% there.
The general perception in the world is that the USA is a Christian Country. A poll would also reflect this although I do not have that information. The majority of its inhabitants claim to be Christian. So in that sense the USA is a Christian Country.
Now lets look at the Official US Government stance Starting with the Constitution.
Amendment I
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
The Government shall not establish a religion. In other words the Government shall not make or promote or dictate a religion. Keep the government out of the church. The Government shall not tell the church what to do or say. The church and religion are protected from the Government messing with them. Clear enough?
Today’s inverted interpretation: The Church must stay out of the Government. The Church must not be in Government in any form. The State needs protection from the Church.
This is a total inversion of intent.
To have a elected official check his religion at the door is not possible.
Religion converts the inside of a person it can not be checked at the door.
This Country is a Christian Nation because Christians elected Christians to run it and to my knowledge always have, and I hope always will.

Well after that little blurp how about getting back to the subject.
Yes I would like to see a vote by the population decide
key issues.
Like abortion for one.
Not that I want to get into that here, but if we could get that out of the way it would give me some options during a election other than always voting one way because of that issue.
oh well I can always dream.

In regards to the so called Seperation of church and state I agree with Judge Rehnquist……

It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of constitutional history, but unfortunately the Establishment Clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly 40 years. Thomas Jefferson was of course in France at the time the constitutional Amendments known as the Bill of Rights were passed by Congress and ratified by the States….

The pilgrims came to bring Christ to the new world.
Read the Mayflower Compact.
In my mind they scoped it out for the new christian Country.
I have been thinking instead of new world order, it should be Christian World Order.
Why stop at the U.S.A.?
Maybe thats what we are doing over-seas.
After all where does it say we can not have more states? Lets add them one at a time.
The whole world could become states.
Then it would be a CHRISTIAN WORLD! Wow!
Kind of lines up with what Bush is doing.
Righto just checked the text here it is:

The Mayflower Compact, Nov. 11, 1620
“Having under taken for the glory of God and the Advancement of the Christian Faith, and honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first Colony…

That is there words by the way not some modern revsion.

For a moment.
If a persons behavior is the gauge of a Chistian.
I must say that this is not a Chistian Country under that test. This country does preach a religion-
Secular Humanism *note the ism* . In my view many Christians (and non-Christians) have been brainwashed by
it. I guess I was born 50-75 years late, as back in the “good old days” I would have more support in Proclaiming this a Christian Country. “Of course we all know they were they dim back then” ….
Yes we have come a long way by following secular Humanism and its god Evolution!
Kids killing kids.
Murder, rape and fear on TV every night both real and non-real.
“Why not eat drink and be merry for tommorrow we die”
We all came from the soup, what does it matter.
The meaning of life? Why sex and have kids! Thats it.
This freedom is great. Did you not know man is good?
Why left to his own devices he will do good.
Yeah right, A fat blob plugged in to his Media and sensations, just wait till your brian can be plugged in.
Oh its coming. Push a button and orgasm.

I reject it.
Your points have been made this is not a Christian Country in law. Although I will continue to call it a Christian Country do to the majority being Christian.
Will this change, I hope not.
But it may, not because God has somehow changed, but we have. Yes I say we. Fat pigs rolling in the muck.
I think I will now go and pray and fast.
The moment is over.

Vistronic
2/28/2003 10:02 PM 64 out of 1097

WG,
I also find your posts…. how can I say…Like putting water on a fire…
You will excuse me if I break the spell and proceed to fan the flame a little.
“Ask counsel of both times-of the ancient time what is best, and of the latter time what is fittest.”-Francis Bacon-
You sir have well said the ancient. The best? I think is relative to ones goal, it is here we differ. The latter? I shall now continue.
I have some additions to my statement that this is a Christian Country.
1. Holidays are Christian
2. Law is Christian: “Act of God” and “Do you promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God” on Bible.
3. House and Senate: Prayer before session, Chaplain, Scriptures on walls.
4. Military: Chaplain (Christian)

These INDICATORS along with the others in post one, point to this Great Christian Country.

It has been stated by some that Washington was not a Christian but a Deist. Also that Washington did not mention Jesus in his writings. I tending to trust what I read on these pages (foolish)did a little research.

1752 Washingtons prayer book 24 pages in his own hand writing.

“Sunday morning….
…pardon I beseech Thee, my sins, Remove them from thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of Thy son Jesus Christ,”

-America’s God and Country-
William J. Federer page 657
There is much more in his own hand writing about Jesus but also HOW HE VIEWED HIM. Besides this I can find other places he wrote or said “Jesus” in the most definate christian way.

Now the true revisionist’s please step Forward.

First about the Mayflower Compact.
To me its all about roots and beginnings.
Not dry historic data, but the spread of the Christian faith from the old world to the new world, also to trace this all the back to A.D. Zero.
The symbolic act of the mayflower influenced others to migrate. Also to bring their faith. In our history books this is taught as a focal point. Its the link in the chain. Like you say, maybe the colony did not amount to much in dollars and land. But the intent does, and the influence on others. The point for me is to trace light back to the source. This is important for the foundation of a spiritual country.

In regards to my new indicators I posted these are ones I should have put in the first post “not grasping at straws” and in my view, to any unbiased person they do point to GOD. And God as we know him here, Christianity.

What would change for you, Vis, if this were officially declared a Christian nation?
It is my view that any nation that does not fear and honor the Lord is doomed.

What would you gain?
The nation would gain a powerful ally and that would make me very happy.

And, would your gaining this be worth the loss of freedom to others?
I never said take away freedom of religion. It may be harder on some because they feel like I do now.

Would being Christian be *easier* if you had this designation, nationally?
No, it is the Country that would gain.

And is *easy* a goal for which Christians are instructed to attain?
No, Pick up your cross and follow him.

If someone could point me to alink so I can learn how to format and all that stuff my posts that would be great till that time.

—Vis, do you really want to live in a society that allows the majority to force its religious will on the minority? You like a “might makes right” type of government?— Iam for freedom of religion in USA.
You can not force a person to be a Christian.
If a country does not honor the Lord it is doomed in my view, thats why I want it to stay a Christian Country.

—What if your religion is one day the minority? Will you still agree that religious majority rules or will you holler for your First Amendment rights? What if the majority one days prefers that women wear a berka? Will you still say that the majority should make a difference or would you then prefer that we keep government and religion separate?—-
I do no advocate these changes in our Laws.
I think on Key limited issues they should take a majority vote such as abortion, not rewrite CON or BoR.

ah goddess, I will leave out the first part of your name.. (:
To me to define a Christian is this.
One who follows Jesus Christ and his teachings as stated in the Bible.
A Country that follows Jesus Christ and his teachings as stated in the Bible.

“…as stated in the Bible.”

*”A good answer. A very revealing answer. Roman Catholics, mainline Protestants and certainly Mormons and JW’s need not apply.”*

Yes it took me a while to think about, what is a Christian… Like I see no need to add to the Bible, some faiths do, OK, Keep religous freedom, I have said this and will say it again now, this country is endorsing a religion, Secular Humanism and its god Evolution. (just have to say that knowing that I now push some away).

You know, VIS, many of your arguments have at least some merit, but the sophistry is too blatant.

Thank you that is encouraging, not that you ment it that way totally.

You cannot use as examples of Christianity in the founding of our republic the work and influence of Christians whose faith you would otherwise deny.

Ok….My idea of a Christian is pretty simple, and this exclusion thing is NOT what I post or think. I think thier is one way, Yes. I Think this because bible says this (to me). I am not for kill the heathen or save them. (well thats a little to simple but you get idea).

Do I think you can find people who are saved in the religions you mentioned, yes very much so.
Vistronic
3/4/2003 3:14 AM 84 out of 1097

amcolph,

“…secular humanism and its god evolution…”

Summer defines it for us:
“Secular humanism is simply a philosophy that states that the human race has shown itself capable of many good things including creativity, understanding, scholarship, cultural development, the arts, the sciences, ethics, etc. and that the existence of these talents is not dependent upon religious belief.”

“Just how and by whom, exactly, is evolution taken for a god? Have you any examples?”

The state has taken (or is trying) to remove all God from itself.
Its new religion is stated above in Summers words. This religion is creeping into, the state and school.
Secular humanism by nature claims no God, but to fill the void of no-god, to explain the work of God, Evolution is the answer pushed by school and state. It closes the gap. Its God is Evolution.

The tenats of man left to his own devices is good,
Has been proven false by history.

Secular Humanism and its god Evolution are preached as facts by our schools. It takes much faith to promote these theroy’s.
Yet they are theroy’s. When a USA history book includes evolution in it’s preface I would say they are PREACHING.
The state pays for this and proceeds to teach Humanism.
Man alone can do it. Ignoring human history.
Man is his own god, and man can dream up the answer to everything.

What a load of rubbish! Lets get back to being a Great Christian Country.

“Just as I thought. No examples.””

“The Supreme Court has not been consistent in applying its definition of religion to its present interpretation of the First Amendment. If the no-establishment clause of the First Amendment really means that there should be a wall of separation between religion and the state, why are only theistic religions being forced out of the public square specifically Christianity? If Secular Humanism is a religion, something the U.S. Supreme Court has acknowledged and something countless Humanists insist is true, why is it allowed in our public schools?”

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-g002.html

I am not a big cut&paste and link guy but you want examples you got-em.

Vistronic
3/4/2003 3:47 PM 89 out of 1097

DoorNumber3
3/4/03 9:18 AM 86 out of 88

“”You mean government is trying to actually follow the governing document of our nation?? :::gasp::: Say it ain’t so!””

-Yes it is so. And they are replacing it with secular humanism.

“”Do you have children in public school?””

-No, christian school-

“”Did you attend a public or private school?””

-Public, primary and secondary-

“”How is that teaching Secular Humanism or evolution as a religion?””

-Please check link above, I am not coping out just check OK-

“”Didn’t the early Americans believe that religion gave them the right to own other people?
Didn’t Americans once believe that religion gives them the right to treat to discriminate against women?””

-Look I am not saying dump our laws, just, look to God not man for source of everything. Fear God honor him-

“”Can you give us your definition of Secular Humanism and Evolution?”” –Summer did a good job.–

“”Can you tell us exactly how the word evolution was used in the history book or is this something else you have heard?””
–Yes I can tell you this is book I had but sold. The preface showed the evolutionary theroy of how USA was formed, rocks to man, and Dinos all of it–

“”Yet you are okay with them teaching Christianity. So it only matters as long as you get your way?””

–The proven way is what matters that is what I am presenting here–

-need coffee-
V

Vistronic
3/4/2003 6:15 PM 90 out of 1097

TRUTHSEEKER51
3/4/03 2:25 PM 87 out of 89

“”Apologies for being among the missing had to take my Boy Scout troop on a camping trip.””

–I am glad you replyed I was a boy scout myself.

“””Holidays are Christian
Lets see here is a list of the government holidays for this year:
Wednesday, January 1 New Year’s Day
Monday, January 20 Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Monday, February 17 Washington’s Birthday
Monday, May 26 Memorial Day
Friday, July 4 Independence Day
Monday, September 1 Labor Day
Monday, October 13 Columbus Day
Tuesday, November 11 Veterans Day
Thursday, November 27 Thanksgiving Day
Thursday, December 25 Christmas Day

You will note that the only one that could be called Christian is Christmas whish is a stolen pagan holiday and these days is more secular then religious So were are all those religious holidays?”””

–Yes this arugment looks very weak at this point.

Humanism is creeping in as christianity is pushed out of it current place as the *official* national religion.
In my mind mind secular humanism should be viewed in the same light as communism as its destructive effect.
This is my view….

-thank God for our Vets-
V
Vistronic
3/5/2003 12:43 AM 94 out of 1097

On this we disagree:

“”There’s a difference. If you’re going to maintain that Humanism is a religion, then you are going to have to count only those who adhere to it like a religion.””

OK define- adhere to it like a religion?
And make sure what you say covers all christians OK. Even those who do not go to church but think the bible is good. Because if you don’t cover them, there religion is no good or not real. And if it is not real, why not put it in the state.

Vistronic
3/5/2003 1:31 AM 95 out of 1097

Re:luminous_kells
3/4/03 6:54 PM 91 out of 94

“”1. How exactly is ANY religion supposed to be expressed in our government?””

-The idea being=
2 Chronicles 7:14 – If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
The mechanics would have to be worked out.

“”Is there some value promoted by secular humanism (except the direct attribution to God) that you don’t like?”” You got it it removes God!

“”3. Since you want to return America to the good old days, when would those good old days have been?””
1900-1950 time frame.
Vistronic
3/6/2003 3:03 AM 98 out of 1097

Summer,
I have enjoyed this thread, understand I am presenting the Fundy view point as I am a member of that “Tribe”.
That does not mean I am 100% unbending as a matter of fact some of my views have changed (not that I would post it!) In review I think all the topics have been well covered, but one.

The Bible says a Country should fear and Honor the Lord.
Is this not correct?
Should we now discount the Bible?
And if we do how can this country avoid Judgement?

Yes I now talk about the BIBLE this is Beliefnet after all. I wonder sometimes if Logic and reason are not the god of this post zone.
Fortunately Christianity Currently embraces all races.
I just can’t help but say, If this one time I was Black I would really
have a post for Avid! BUT I’m not. (:

Truth: “”Now I am going to say something that undoubtedly be taken the wrong way. Perhaps this is not the right place for those who feel a country must submit to God.””

I disagree and should know precede to Quote many of our Founding fathers who said different.
I will now say again, if we turn from God we will be sorry. (IMO)
Every year the dark spirit of humanism is creeping into all the cracks it can fill in Government.

Mr Avid,
What a pleasure it is to see you join the conversation,
-ahahhhhhudsud- sorry frog in my throat.
The mention treaty has already been hammered into my head by many here. So I propose a theroy (Oh no!)
To determain a unknown point let us our friend the right triangle, and trianglation. Like in navigation when the point is unknown.

First determain the destination “USA Christian Country”

Then find 2 points (in kind) that point to that conlusion. Triangalation. I have presented many points in like kind for my statement.

Now the treaty is one point can anyone produce another (in like kind) to point to Non-christian nation.
Then your triangle will be complete. For this one minor point.

-fun-Sorry sometimes I channel to much unrestrained thought into this text box. I will keep such inner logical workings of my mind contained for philosophical threads and begin focusing on a more mundane but direct approach to the issues.

-sorry for glitch-
-recompiling-
Vis.
“In terms of religion, it is not a matter of “trying to make” the United States a Christian nation. The U.S. has always been a Christian nation from the earliest colonial settlements. It remains a Christian nation today. The vast majority of U.S. citizenry claim at least a nominal adherence to Christianity, and, amazingly enough, the majority of our new immigrants make a similar claim — even those from Asian countries. The U.S. was founded upon Christian principles and beliefs.” -Barton

I am not alone in my view.
Vis.

“”The question remains: why did the Framers not simply declare Christianity the official religion of the United States?””

Hello good ?’s,
This was considered but was not set forth to prevent the state from running the church, TO PROTECT THE CHURCH. The total inverse is practiced today, see my argument about this a while back.

“”Wouldn’t a Christian nation, at the very least, have declared itself as such in its very own constitution?”

Again if you study the founding fathers the stuff we are doing today was not in there minds, it was not there intent. To say different is a false witness. To say that the CON clause in the future would require the Bible out of school!! Come on! It has been twisted. Read my Separation posts here (thanks to Barton) and you can see this reinterpretation going on.
The USA and the Bible are interwoven, to say different is not looking at the facts (IMO). This un-weaving we are doing now is not productive. But dangerous to a country that was founded on the Christian world view.

Vistronic
3/15/2003 9:11 PM 139 out of 1097

BTW- Its gotten so ridiculous, now some really do want to get out the jack hammers and remove the 10 commandments from state buildings!

-its crazy-
Vis.
Vistronic
3/17/2003 3:40 PM 152 out of 1097

Chris·tian (kr¹s“ch…n) adj. 1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings. 3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. 4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. 5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

Gary, I want you to Know I am glad you posted I do not agree with everything you said BUT on the core concepts we agree, JESUS CHRIST is lord. The disscusion is all ways better in my view when people are honest even if it is not politcaily correct. I know people who do have contemp for christian people, I will freely admitt I look at people who are not Christian as diffrent then I am. AND I treat them as such, not in a bad way, But the family of christ is a Body, and the parts of Body are diffrent and if Gary has accepted Christ he is a part too. And that does not bother me. The Bible clearly says they will know Christians by there love for one another. So even if someone posted here even more to the right then Mr. Gary and they where a Christian I would support them, if they are in Prison I would support them (No ofence ment Gary) the love of God is unconditional , But I would like to point out Bro. Gary the nature of the people Jesus hanged out with. The well have no need of a doctor (Jesus) BUT the sick do.
I am not calling anyone here SICK, But the idea is Jesus was the friend and teacher and lord to all people.
1. You shall have no other Gods before me..
This is the one the USA needs to try and find a way to follow. As if we do not, we are doomed.
Vis.

“I have always said, I always will say, that the studious persual of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better Husbands”

Thomas Jefferson-

I will say amen to that.
Vis.
I think you all need to read the History closer of this great Christian Country! Then you will see how Humanism is sucking the soul out of school and goverment. I for one am reading it, and it does not align with this 21st century revisionism. Also Prez. Tom J. sure seemed to call on God in the DOI, put what do I know I just read the documents and assume God created all men equal at what it says, Not some well you see he did not really mean God, he meant this and that you must read very careful, And in God we trust, well you see there again it is not really God.
Rubbish!
Vis. Vistronic
3/24/2003 7:21 PM 302 out of 1097

One book is “America God and Country” the other is “dynamic freedoms” sorry no author I am on the radio board at work, I am playing southern gospel music, I DJ monday night 6-10pm

Vistronic
3/24/2003 7:25 PM 303 out of 1097

. “”Are you saying that “Nature’s God” is Yahweh?””
One God the creator, in all of course, I do not know his name I call him God, I do not to box him in by a name, Mr. Gambit is on me about that.GOD= ( I am )
The God of the Bible.

Vistronic
3/24/2003 9:28 PM 304 out of 1097

“”WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness””

DOI-
Good site for historic documents.
http://memory.loc.gov/const/mdbquery.html

Vis.

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