Vistronic – Creation – Evolution – Origins of life

December 7, 2017

“The Jury is still out” on evolution.

Filed under: Uncategorized — vistronic @ 2:39 am

George Walker Bush the forty-third and current President of the United States of America:
“The jury is still out” on evolution.

I agree

Hello Everyone,
The common theme among many replies here is that science has nothing to say about those things… vis-a-vis.. Religion, Faith , and by inference Creationism.

I disagree.

The philosophy of “science” so called, or the philosophy of a general evolutionary type movement within “science”, the “scientific method” only crowd,  strongly leans a person to atheism or agnosticism at minimum IMHO.
Illustrated by this statement I will make but not agree with,
Every area of knowledge must be proven by the “scientific method”.

Why do you all claim it stops at religion and faith? Carry this philosophy to its conclusion.

The crux.
God must be proven by the scientific method.
and in its wake,
matters of faith and religion also.

In some ways I don’t have a problem with that.
I personally think that true science does point to God and someday will prove that.
In the meantime I have no problem with saying things change and adapt over time.
I have no problem with a old or a young earth.

What I have a problem with is not giving God the glory for his creation.
That is the real issue beyond these speculations about mechanics of creation.


ozero wrote:

vis: “…the “scientific method” only crowd, strongly leans a person to atheism or agnosticism at minimum IMHO.”

Don’t you think that the real problem is not science pushing people toward atheism or agnosticism, but “creationism religion”. People are not stupid and they can see the dishonesty and deceit and politicization within the fundamentalist movement. None of the real Christian denominations are complaining about science turning their people off, they suggest other problems. No other sect is so full of such obvious liars. I’m not talking about people who make statements that they truly believe in, but are in error, but people who know that what they are claiming are lies. They’ve been called on them before, acknowledged them publicly and then turn around and use the same lies the next time they speak at a church or gathering. I don’t think anything is as deadly to faith as deceit. Within science there have been lies, piltdown man etc, that are often brought up by creationists, but the people who exposed those lies were scientists. Of all the top creationists who have been exposed as liars, none of them were brought to the carpet by other creationists. It makes it appear that the whole movement is dishonest, is the problem. Start a movement to bring honesty to your religion and maybe you wouldn’t see so many of them going to atheism or agnosticism.

The following reply is my opinion.

Hello, lets be clear on one thing,

Rev 21:8 “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

This is the warning that Creationists including myself should listen and heed.
The majority of Creationists are people of the “word” and try to live there lives the opposite of liars.

The minority do not. They “bend” reality (sic) for the greater good (or so it appears to them, sometimes unintentionally).

This very much grieves many.

The “YEC creationism” is not a tenet of faith in Jesus or salvation IMHO,
To me Creation by God is a paramount statement but becoming born again is the major concern. The Creation mechanics of how or why are in his hands.

That said I still favor a literal translation of the Bible.
I still contend that Jesus is a valid figure in history and in the current time ( and to me the Savior).
That Genesis is a most Logical and Beautiful and accurate Creation account.
I apologize to all here who where offended by “creationist” liars. I can assure you that many, many, creationists are not.

Just as many Christian Television shows are NOT hosted by con men. Some maybe, the minority.

In His service,

January 23, 2008

Creatio ex nihilo

Filed under: Creation — vistronic @ 9:48 pm

Creatio ex nihilo, meaning creation out of nothing.
Creatio ex materia, which is creation out of eternally preexistent matter.
Creatio ex deo, which is creation out of the being of God.

In examining the scriptures with a 21st century viewpoint “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” the question is put forth, from what was creation?

The traditional view being God created the universe “Creatio ex nihilo” or out of nothing.
Current progressive creationists have interpolated “the big bang” at this moment to consider with the creation moment. A common presentation put forth by creationists in support of creation (myself included) is the second law of thermodynamics. Therefore if we are to adopt the second law the first law should be applicable as well.  The law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.

Here we see the paradox then. If we adapt these laws as a guide, the creation moment becomes “energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another” Creatio ex materia. Therefore it appears reasonable that to use the 2nd law, the 1st law should be used likewise.

 A review of the “laws” maybe helpful at this point.

“”Zeroth law of thermodynamics, stating that thermodynamic equilibrium is an equivalence relation. If two thermodynamic systems are separately in thermal equilibrium with a third, they are also in thermal equilibrium with each other.

First law of thermodynamics, about the conservation of energy
The change in the internal energy of a closed thermodynamic system is equal to the sum of the amount of heat energy supplied to the system and the work done on the system.

Second law of thermodynamics, about entropy
The total entropy of any isolated thermodynamic system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value.

Third law of thermodynamics, about absolute zero temperature
As a system asymptotically approaches absolute zero of temperature all processes virtually cease and the entropy of the system asymptotically approaches a minimum value; also stated as: “the entropy of all systems and of all states of a system is zero at absolute zero” or equivalently “it is impossible to reach the absolute zero of temperature by any finite number of processes”. “” * (source wiki)

First off let me state that these laws apply to closed thermodynamic systems, is Creation a closed thermodynamic system? Well thats open for debate. But we shall extrapolate these laws into our current example.

This is important for several reasons. “Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.  Therefore, the universe must have a cause. philosophy that states before there was anything, there was nothing, and if there was nothing, then it must have been possible for nothing to be. If it is possible for nothing to be, then it must be possible for everything to be. Something cannot arise from nothing; this is a contradiction. Therefore there must always have been something. But it is scientifically impossible for matter to always have existed. What is more, matter is contingent, that is it is not logically impossible for it not to exist, and nothing else depends on it. So there must have been a Creator who is not contingent and not composed of matter: this Being is God.”*

It appears that 3 options now become viable to consider from a creationist viewpoint.

1. Creatio ex nihilo, The traditional view but if we adopt this we should drop or modify the “second law” arguments IMHO.

2. Creatio ex materia, The transformation of matter or energy to a different form. I currently lean this way as I view God as “timeless”. I also speculate that there existed pre-existing forms, the thoughts or words of God that were expressed at the creation moment creating our universe.

3. Creatio ex deo, which is creation out of the being of God. This also has scriptural support and is worth contemplating.

So my friends is it Door number one, two or three!


some material edited from,
* (source wiki)

Church and State

Filed under: Uncategorized — vistronic @ 12:07 am

2/25/2003 9:50 PM 1 out of 1097

The USA is a Christian Country.
The Majority of people in it are Christians.
The World looks at us as a Christian nation.
Most missionarys come from the USA.
Our money says “In God we trust”
Our pledge “one nation under god”
In our schools the Bible was taught for 150 years.
In our schools they had prayer for 150 years.
The founding Fathers were Christian.
The mayflower compact was Christian.
The Bible is the most published Book in USA.

I say that makes us a Christian Nation what do you say?

My post was from birth to now time frame about USA, but I am very glad you posted as I have something to say on this issue. Histroy has been a long road of one country taking over another 1000’s of times. Most often by war or fourse. I am not happy about this it just IS. I would have tried to do it diffrent I hope at least.
I think your post sheds more light on my argument.
What religion was fourced down there throats ?
Even then they were Christians. So called at least.
Christians claiming the land for the future USA.
So it looks like from the beginning Christians were there. I do not condone the tactics but here we stand today. With some blood on our hands lets repent and go on.

I am a little shell shocked that no posts are in support of my view. I think it is fairly main stream.
I would even say I have been holding back.
First I must answer this go read a book thing.
I have a Degree in electronics my GPO was 4.0.
I am working on second Degree my GPO is 3.8.
Last year I took US Histroy 1 and US History 2 my GPO was 4.0. So when you say go read a history book I have.
To imply that anyone who is learned would think diffrent then I do is not a valid statement.
I do make spelling errors, in school I use a lot of spell checking and proof reading but I get the job done. In english 101 I got a 4.0, how? A lot of hard work. I laugh right along with you guys about it so dont worry I have thick skin and I think it is fair play.

Getting back to the subject, In this case the preception of us being a Christian country is correct.
Also the majority should make a difference, is’nt that what voting is about.
Its funny for 150 years the bible was OK in school then one day, its wrong what are we doing. I guess back in the old days they did not understand. It took modern thinking to get it right.
Next time you are in one of our State buildings from the old days look around at the walls and read the many Bible verses. Get out the jack hammers to remove it right? Again I guess they must of been confused about this church and state thing.
I say they knew what they were doing

Fair enough sounds like we are 50% there.
The general perception in the world is that the USA is a Christian Country. A poll would also reflect this although I do not have that information. The majority of its inhabitants claim to be Christian. So in that sense the USA is a Christian Country.
Now lets look at the Official US Government stance Starting with the Constitution.
Amendment I
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
The Government shall not establish a religion. In other words the Government shall not make or promote or dictate a religion. Keep the government out of the church. The Government shall not tell the church what to do or say. The church and religion are protected from the Government messing with them. Clear enough?
Today’s inverted interpretation: The Church must stay out of the Government. The Church must not be in Government in any form. The State needs protection from the Church.
This is a total inversion of intent.
To have a elected official check his religion at the door is not possible.
Religion converts the inside of a person it can not be checked at the door.
This Country is a Christian Nation because Christians elected Christians to run it and to my knowledge always have, and I hope always will.

Well after that little blurp how about getting back to the subject.
Yes I would like to see a vote by the population decide
key issues.
Like abortion for one.
Not that I want to get into that here, but if we could get that out of the way it would give me some options during a election other than always voting one way because of that issue.
oh well I can always dream.

In regards to the so called Seperation of church and state I agree with Judge Rehnquist……

It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of constitutional history, but unfortunately the Establishment Clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly 40 years. Thomas Jefferson was of course in France at the time the constitutional Amendments known as the Bill of Rights were passed by Congress and ratified by the States….

The pilgrims came to bring Christ to the new world.
Read the Mayflower Compact.
In my mind they scoped it out for the new christian Country.
I have been thinking instead of new world order, it should be Christian World Order.
Why stop at the U.S.A.?
Maybe thats what we are doing over-seas.
After all where does it say we can not have more states? Lets add them one at a time.
The whole world could become states.
Then it would be a CHRISTIAN WORLD! Wow!
Kind of lines up with what Bush is doing.
Righto just checked the text here it is:

The Mayflower Compact, Nov. 11, 1620
“Having under taken for the glory of God and the Advancement of the Christian Faith, and honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first Colony…

That is there words by the way not some modern revsion.

For a moment.
If a persons behavior is the gauge of a Chistian.
I must say that this is not a Chistian Country under that test. This country does preach a religion-
Secular Humanism *note the ism* . In my view many Christians (and non-Christians) have been brainwashed by
it. I guess I was born 50-75 years late, as back in the “good old days” I would have more support in Proclaiming this a Christian Country. “Of course we all know they were they dim back then” ….
Yes we have come a long way by following secular Humanism and its god Evolution!
Kids killing kids.
Murder, rape and fear on TV every night both real and non-real.
“Why not eat drink and be merry for tommorrow we die”
We all came from the soup, what does it matter.
The meaning of life? Why sex and have kids! Thats it.
This freedom is great. Did you not know man is good?
Why left to his own devices he will do good.
Yeah right, A fat blob plugged in to his Media and sensations, just wait till your brian can be plugged in.
Oh its coming. Push a button and orgasm.

I reject it.
Your points have been made this is not a Christian Country in law. Although I will continue to call it a Christian Country do to the majority being Christian.
Will this change, I hope not.
But it may, not because God has somehow changed, but we have. Yes I say we. Fat pigs rolling in the muck.
I think I will now go and pray and fast.
The moment is over.

2/28/2003 10:02 PM 64 out of 1097

I also find your posts…. how can I say…Like putting water on a fire…
You will excuse me if I break the spell and proceed to fan the flame a little.
“Ask counsel of both times-of the ancient time what is best, and of the latter time what is fittest.”-Francis Bacon-
You sir have well said the ancient. The best? I think is relative to ones goal, it is here we differ. The latter? I shall now continue.
I have some additions to my statement that this is a Christian Country.
1. Holidays are Christian
2. Law is Christian: “Act of God” and “Do you promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God” on Bible.
3. House and Senate: Prayer before session, Chaplain, Scriptures on walls.
4. Military: Chaplain (Christian)

These INDICATORS along with the others in post one, point to this Great Christian Country.

It has been stated by some that Washington was not a Christian but a Deist. Also that Washington did not mention Jesus in his writings. I tending to trust what I read on these pages (foolish)did a little research.

1752 Washingtons prayer book 24 pages in his own hand writing.

“Sunday morning….
…pardon I beseech Thee, my sins, Remove them from thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of Thy son Jesus Christ,”

-America’s God and Country-
William J. Federer page 657
There is much more in his own hand writing about Jesus but also HOW HE VIEWED HIM. Besides this I can find other places he wrote or said “Jesus” in the most definate christian way.

Now the true revisionist’s please step Forward.

First about the Mayflower Compact.
To me its all about roots and beginnings.
Not dry historic data, but the spread of the Christian faith from the old world to the new world, also to trace this all the back to A.D. Zero.
The symbolic act of the mayflower influenced others to migrate. Also to bring their faith. In our history books this is taught as a focal point. Its the link in the chain. Like you say, maybe the colony did not amount to much in dollars and land. But the intent does, and the influence on others. The point for me is to trace light back to the source. This is important for the foundation of a spiritual country.

In regards to my new indicators I posted these are ones I should have put in the first post “not grasping at straws” and in my view, to any unbiased person they do point to GOD. And God as we know him here, Christianity.

What would change for you, Vis, if this were officially declared a Christian nation?
It is my view that any nation that does not fear and honor the Lord is doomed.

What would you gain?
The nation would gain a powerful ally and that would make me very happy.

And, would your gaining this be worth the loss of freedom to others?
I never said take away freedom of religion. It may be harder on some because they feel like I do now.

Would being Christian be *easier* if you had this designation, nationally?
No, it is the Country that would gain.

And is *easy* a goal for which Christians are instructed to attain?
No, Pick up your cross and follow him.

If someone could point me to alink so I can learn how to format and all that stuff my posts that would be great till that time.

—Vis, do you really want to live in a society that allows the majority to force its religious will on the minority? You like a “might makes right” type of government?— Iam for freedom of religion in USA.
You can not force a person to be a Christian.
If a country does not honor the Lord it is doomed in my view, thats why I want it to stay a Christian Country.

—What if your religion is one day the minority? Will you still agree that religious majority rules or will you holler for your First Amendment rights? What if the majority one days prefers that women wear a berka? Will you still say that the majority should make a difference or would you then prefer that we keep government and religion separate?—-
I do no advocate these changes in our Laws.
I think on Key limited issues they should take a majority vote such as abortion, not rewrite CON or BoR.

ah goddess, I will leave out the first part of your name.. (:
To me to define a Christian is this.
One who follows Jesus Christ and his teachings as stated in the Bible.
A Country that follows Jesus Christ and his teachings as stated in the Bible.

“…as stated in the Bible.”

*”A good answer. A very revealing answer. Roman Catholics, mainline Protestants and certainly Mormons and JW’s need not apply.”*

Yes it took me a while to think about, what is a Christian… Like I see no need to add to the Bible, some faiths do, OK, Keep religous freedom, I have said this and will say it again now, this country is endorsing a religion, Secular Humanism and its god Evolution. (just have to say that knowing that I now push some away).

You know, VIS, many of your arguments have at least some merit, but the sophistry is too blatant.

Thank you that is encouraging, not that you ment it that way totally.

You cannot use as examples of Christianity in the founding of our republic the work and influence of Christians whose faith you would otherwise deny.

Ok….My idea of a Christian is pretty simple, and this exclusion thing is NOT what I post or think. I think thier is one way, Yes. I Think this because bible says this (to me). I am not for kill the heathen or save them. (well thats a little to simple but you get idea).

Do I think you can find people who are saved in the religions you mentioned, yes very much so.
3/4/2003 3:14 AM 84 out of 1097


“…secular humanism and its god evolution…”

Summer defines it for us:
“Secular humanism is simply a philosophy that states that the human race has shown itself capable of many good things including creativity, understanding, scholarship, cultural development, the arts, the sciences, ethics, etc. and that the existence of these talents is not dependent upon religious belief.”

“Just how and by whom, exactly, is evolution taken for a god? Have you any examples?”

The state has taken (or is trying) to remove all God from itself.
Its new religion is stated above in Summers words. This religion is creeping into, the state and school.
Secular humanism by nature claims no God, but to fill the void of no-god, to explain the work of God, Evolution is the answer pushed by school and state. It closes the gap. Its God is Evolution.

The tenats of man left to his own devices is good,
Has been proven false by history.

Secular Humanism and its god Evolution are preached as facts by our schools. It takes much faith to promote these theroy’s.
Yet they are theroy’s. When a USA history book includes evolution in it’s preface I would say they are PREACHING.
The state pays for this and proceeds to teach Humanism.
Man alone can do it. Ignoring human history.
Man is his own god, and man can dream up the answer to everything.

What a load of rubbish! Lets get back to being a Great Christian Country.

“Just as I thought. No examples.””

“The Supreme Court has not been consistent in applying its definition of religion to its present interpretation of the First Amendment. If the no-establishment clause of the First Amendment really means that there should be a wall of separation between religion and the state, why are only theistic religions being forced out of the public square specifically Christianity? If Secular Humanism is a religion, something the U.S. Supreme Court has acknowledged and something countless Humanists insist is true, why is it allowed in our public schools?”

I am not a big cut&paste and link guy but you want examples you got-em.

3/4/2003 3:47 PM 89 out of 1097

3/4/03 9:18 AM 86 out of 88

“”You mean government is trying to actually follow the governing document of our nation?? :::gasp::: Say it ain’t so!””

-Yes it is so. And they are replacing it with secular humanism.

“”Do you have children in public school?””

-No, christian school-

“”Did you attend a public or private school?””

-Public, primary and secondary-

“”How is that teaching Secular Humanism or evolution as a religion?””

-Please check link above, I am not coping out just check OK-

“”Didn’t the early Americans believe that religion gave them the right to own other people?
Didn’t Americans once believe that religion gives them the right to treat to discriminate against women?””

-Look I am not saying dump our laws, just, look to God not man for source of everything. Fear God honor him-

“”Can you give us your definition of Secular Humanism and Evolution?”” –Summer did a good job.–

“”Can you tell us exactly how the word evolution was used in the history book or is this something else you have heard?””
–Yes I can tell you this is book I had but sold. The preface showed the evolutionary theroy of how USA was formed, rocks to man, and Dinos all of it–

“”Yet you are okay with them teaching Christianity. So it only matters as long as you get your way?””

–The proven way is what matters that is what I am presenting here–

-need coffee-

3/4/2003 6:15 PM 90 out of 1097

3/4/03 2:25 PM 87 out of 89

“”Apologies for being among the missing had to take my Boy Scout troop on a camping trip.””

–I am glad you replyed I was a boy scout myself.

“””Holidays are Christian
Lets see here is a list of the government holidays for this year:
Wednesday, January 1 New Year’s Day
Monday, January 20 Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Monday, February 17 Washington’s Birthday
Monday, May 26 Memorial Day
Friday, July 4 Independence Day
Monday, September 1 Labor Day
Monday, October 13 Columbus Day
Tuesday, November 11 Veterans Day
Thursday, November 27 Thanksgiving Day
Thursday, December 25 Christmas Day

You will note that the only one that could be called Christian is Christmas whish is a stolen pagan holiday and these days is more secular then religious So were are all those religious holidays?”””

–Yes this arugment looks very weak at this point.

Humanism is creeping in as christianity is pushed out of it current place as the *official* national religion.
In my mind mind secular humanism should be viewed in the same light as communism as its destructive effect.
This is my view….

-thank God for our Vets-
3/5/2003 12:43 AM 94 out of 1097

On this we disagree:

“”There’s a difference. If you’re going to maintain that Humanism is a religion, then you are going to have to count only those who adhere to it like a religion.””

OK define- adhere to it like a religion?
And make sure what you say covers all christians OK. Even those who do not go to church but think the bible is good. Because if you don’t cover them, there religion is no good or not real. And if it is not real, why not put it in the state.

3/5/2003 1:31 AM 95 out of 1097

3/4/03 6:54 PM 91 out of 94

“”1. How exactly is ANY religion supposed to be expressed in our government?””

-The idea being=
2 Chronicles 7:14 – If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
The mechanics would have to be worked out.

“”Is there some value promoted by secular humanism (except the direct attribution to God) that you don’t like?”” You got it it removes God!

“”3. Since you want to return America to the good old days, when would those good old days have been?””
1900-1950 time frame.
3/6/2003 3:03 AM 98 out of 1097

I have enjoyed this thread, understand I am presenting the Fundy view point as I am a member of that “Tribe”.
That does not mean I am 100% unbending as a matter of fact some of my views have changed (not that I would post it!) In review I think all the topics have been well covered, but one.

The Bible says a Country should fear and Honor the Lord.
Is this not correct?
Should we now discount the Bible?
And if we do how can this country avoid Judgement?

Yes I now talk about the BIBLE this is Beliefnet after all. I wonder sometimes if Logic and reason are not the god of this post zone.
Fortunately Christianity Currently embraces all races.
I just can’t help but say, If this one time I was Black I would really
have a post for Avid! BUT I’m not. (:

Truth: “”Now I am going to say something that undoubtedly be taken the wrong way. Perhaps this is not the right place for those who feel a country must submit to God.””

I disagree and should know precede to Quote many of our Founding fathers who said different.
I will now say again, if we turn from God we will be sorry. (IMO)
Every year the dark spirit of humanism is creeping into all the cracks it can fill in Government.

Mr Avid,
What a pleasure it is to see you join the conversation,
-ahahhhhhudsud- sorry frog in my throat.
The mention treaty has already been hammered into my head by many here. So I propose a theroy (Oh no!)
To determain a unknown point let us our friend the right triangle, and trianglation. Like in navigation when the point is unknown.

First determain the destination “USA Christian Country”

Then find 2 points (in kind) that point to that conlusion. Triangalation. I have presented many points in like kind for my statement.

Now the treaty is one point can anyone produce another (in like kind) to point to Non-christian nation.
Then your triangle will be complete. For this one minor point.

-fun-Sorry sometimes I channel to much unrestrained thought into this text box. I will keep such inner logical workings of my mind contained for philosophical threads and begin focusing on a more mundane but direct approach to the issues.

-sorry for glitch-
“In terms of religion, it is not a matter of “trying to make” the United States a Christian nation. The U.S. has always been a Christian nation from the earliest colonial settlements. It remains a Christian nation today. The vast majority of U.S. citizenry claim at least a nominal adherence to Christianity, and, amazingly enough, the majority of our new immigrants make a similar claim — even those from Asian countries. The U.S. was founded upon Christian principles and beliefs.” -Barton

I am not alone in my view.

“”The question remains: why did the Framers not simply declare Christianity the official religion of the United States?””

Hello good ?’s,
This was considered but was not set forth to prevent the state from running the church, TO PROTECT THE CHURCH. The total inverse is practiced today, see my argument about this a while back.

“”Wouldn’t a Christian nation, at the very least, have declared itself as such in its very own constitution?”

Again if you study the founding fathers the stuff we are doing today was not in there minds, it was not there intent. To say different is a false witness. To say that the CON clause in the future would require the Bible out of school!! Come on! It has been twisted. Read my Separation posts here (thanks to Barton) and you can see this reinterpretation going on.
The USA and the Bible are interwoven, to say different is not looking at the facts (IMO). This un-weaving we are doing now is not productive. But dangerous to a country that was founded on the Christian world view.

3/15/2003 9:11 PM 139 out of 1097

BTW- Its gotten so ridiculous, now some really do want to get out the jack hammers and remove the 10 commandments from state buildings!

-its crazy-
3/17/2003 3:40 PM 152 out of 1097

Chris·tian (kr¹s“ch…n) adj. 1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings. 3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. 4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. 5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

Gary, I want you to Know I am glad you posted I do not agree with everything you said BUT on the core concepts we agree, JESUS CHRIST is lord. The disscusion is all ways better in my view when people are honest even if it is not politcaily correct. I know people who do have contemp for christian people, I will freely admitt I look at people who are not Christian as diffrent then I am. AND I treat them as such, not in a bad way, But the family of christ is a Body, and the parts of Body are diffrent and if Gary has accepted Christ he is a part too. And that does not bother me. The Bible clearly says they will know Christians by there love for one another. So even if someone posted here even more to the right then Mr. Gary and they where a Christian I would support them, if they are in Prison I would support them (No ofence ment Gary) the love of God is unconditional , But I would like to point out Bro. Gary the nature of the people Jesus hanged out with. The well have no need of a doctor (Jesus) BUT the sick do.
I am not calling anyone here SICK, But the idea is Jesus was the friend and teacher and lord to all people.
1. You shall have no other Gods before me..
This is the one the USA needs to try and find a way to follow. As if we do not, we are doomed.

“I have always said, I always will say, that the studious persual of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better Husbands”

Thomas Jefferson-

I will say amen to that.
I think you all need to read the History closer of this great Christian Country! Then you will see how Humanism is sucking the soul out of school and goverment. I for one am reading it, and it does not align with this 21st century revisionism. Also Prez. Tom J. sure seemed to call on God in the DOI, put what do I know I just read the documents and assume God created all men equal at what it says, Not some well you see he did not really mean God, he meant this and that you must read very careful, And in God we trust, well you see there again it is not really God.
Vis. Vistronic
3/24/2003 7:21 PM 302 out of 1097

One book is “America God and Country” the other is “dynamic freedoms” sorry no author I am on the radio board at work, I am playing southern gospel music, I DJ monday night 6-10pm

3/24/2003 7:25 PM 303 out of 1097

. “”Are you saying that “Nature’s God” is Yahweh?””
One God the creator, in all of course, I do not know his name I call him God, I do not to box him in by a name, Mr. Gambit is on me about that.GOD= ( I am )
The God of the Bible.

3/24/2003 9:28 PM 304 out of 1097

“”WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness””

Good site for historic documents.


January 22, 2008


Filed under: Uncategorized — vistronic @ 11:17 pm

In regards to Noahs Flood.
Some may wonder why waste your time on such silliness?
But is it a waste of time? Personally I do not think so. There are many stories in the bible that seem scientifically impossible.

The story of Adam and Eve and how Eve came from Adams rib.
How the sun stopped in the sky.
The parting of the red sea.
The snake raised on a staff heals people.
Jonah and the whale.
Noah’s flood.
Jesus is born of a virgin with no human father.
Jesus heals the blind.
Jesus raises from the dead (Lazarus also)
Jesus ascends to heaven.
These things also seem scientifically impossible at this time.
Yet I contend they did happen. By faith yes… but also by reason. Any common reason would show how could 1 man than 12 men change the world?
There is something real here….. The results show it.
Am I to base my religious theology on what science can prove at the time? I think not.
That said it is always nice when and if science can reinforce faith.
Therefore the evidence for the flood must be there.

It has to be….. If it is not well……
Huston we have a problem.
5/4/2004 12:13 AM 27 out of 63


Filed under: Creation — vistronic @ 10:41 pm

Biblicial Timeline and historicial prespective.

5315 BC -In 1996 the earth 7311 years old according to the Septuagint.
4000 BC – (5792-4862 ) Creation week.
3761 BC – Ancient Jewish scholars calculated that the world began
– The fall
2344 BC – (3536 BC) The Flood 100 years after Flood tower of Babel.
2100 BC Abram (later renamed Abraham) moves from Ur to Canaan.
1900 BC Jacob’s son Joseph is sold into Egyptian slavery.
1500 BC The Israelites become slaves of Egypt.
1450 BC Moses leads the Israelites from Egypt and through the Red Sea.
1410 BC Joshua leads next generation of Israelites into Canaan.
1375 BC Beginning of time of Judges. For three hundred years
1050 BC Kingdom of Israel is established. Saul is Israel’s first king.
1010 BC David becomes Israel’s king.
970 BC David’s son Solomon becomes Israel’s king.
959 BC The Jerusalem temple is completed by Solomon.
930 BC Solomon’s son Rehoboam becomes king. Kingdom splits
860 BC Elijah brings down fire from heaven.
820 BC Jonah and the whale
750 BC Isaiah accurately predicts the Messiah
722 BC Israel falls to Assyria. The southern kingdom of Judah still stands.
586 BC Ezekiel accurately predicts Tyre’s destruction
586 BC Judah falls to Babylon. The temple is destroyed.
Jews are exiled to Babylon.
Daniel serves in Babylon court and later in Persian court.
539 BC Babylon falls to Persia.Jews to return and rebuild Jerusalem.
516 BC The temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem.
460 BC Esther made queen of Persia.
430 BC Malachi writes the last book of the Old Testament.

6-4 BC Jesus Christ of Nazareth is born.
BC- Before Christ, an epoch based on the traditionally reckoned year of the conception or birth of Jesus of Nazareth
AD-1* “Anno Domini” is Latin for “in the year of Our Lord” Traditional Birth of Jesus
27 AD Jesus travels preaching the good news.
30 AD Jesus executed by the Romans,
Three days later God raises him from the dead.
35 AD Saul becomes Paul.
70 AD Romans destroy Jerusalem & the 2nd Temple
95 AD John writes the book of Revelations

2,000 yrs (Church Age)

1948 AD Nation of Israel Reborn.

1967 AD Israel regains Jerusalem.

Rapture (removal) of true Christians from earth to heaven
Tribulation Period Over several years
European Anti-Christ signs Middle East Peace Pact with Israel,
7 Year Peace Treaty
The Second Coming
The risen Jesus Christ returns (rapture)

The Millennium Reign.
1000 years.
Satan is thrown into the lake of burning Fire.
All people are judged.
New heaven and a new earth.

 Common usage omits year zero. This creates a problem with some scientific calculations. Accordingly, in astronomical year numbering, a zero year is added before 1 AD, and the ‘AD’ and ‘BC’ designation is dropped. In keeping with ‘standard decimal numbering’, a minus sign ‘−’ is added for years before year zero: so counting down from year 2 would give 2, 1, 0, −1, −2, and so on. This results in a one-year shift between the two systems (eg −1 equals 2 BC).[15]


One point being as Henry Morris correctly observed:
Thus the Biblical chronology is about a million times shorter than the evolutionary chronology. A million-fold mistake is no small matter, and Biblical scholars surely need to give primary attention to resolving this tremendous discrepancy right at the very foundation of our entire Biblical cosmology. This is not a peripheral issue that can be dismissed with some exegetical twist, but is central to the very integrity of scriptural theology (1984, p. 115).

R.L. Wysong addressed another (VALID) point in his book, The Creation-Evolution Controversy, when he wrote:

Both evolutionists and creationists believe evolution is an impossibility if the universe is only a few thousand years old. There probably is no statement that could be made on the topic of origins which would meet with so much agreement from both sides. Setting aside the question of whether vast time is competent to propel evolution, we must query if vast time is indeed available (1976, p. 144).

2/16/2004 6:19 PM 9 out of 51

Morris’s book BTW

Morris, Henry M. (1984), The Biblical Basis for Modern Science (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker).

The only indication of the time at which the Tower of Babel was erected, we find in the name of Phaleg (Genesis 11:10-17), the grandnephew of Heber; this places the date somewhere between 101 and 870 years after the Flood. The limits are so unsatisfactory, because the Greek Version differs in its numbers from the Massoretic text.

An adjustment will be made to the timeline.

2/16/2004 8:56 PM 23 out of 51

Evolutionary Timeline:

4600 Formation of the approximately homogeneous solid Earth by planetesimal accretion
4300 Melting of the Earth due to radioactive and gravitational heating which leads to its differentiated interior structure as well as outgassing of molecules such as water, methane, ammonia, hydrogen, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide
4300 Atmospheric water is photodissociated by ultraviolet light to give oxygen atoms which are incorporated into an ozone layer and hydrogen molecules which escape into space
4000 Bombardment of the Earth by planetesimals stops
3800 The Earth’s crust solidifies–formation of the oldest rocks found on Earth
3800 Condensation of atmospheric water into oceans
3500-2800 Prokaryotic cell organisms develop
3500-2800 Beginning of photosynthesis by blue-green algae which releases oxygen molecules into the atmosphere and steadily works to strengthen the ozone layer and change the Earth’s chemically reducing atmosphere into a chemically oxidizing one
2400 Rise in the concentration of oxygen molecules stops the deposition of uraninites (since they are soluble when combined with oxygen) and starts the deposition of banded iron formations
2000 The Oklo natural fission reactor in Gabon goes into operation
1600 The last reserves of reduced iron are used up by the increasing atmospheric oxygen–last banded iron formations
1500 Eukaryotic cell organisms develop
1500-600 Rise of multicellular organisms
580-545 Fossils of Ediacaran organisms are made
545 Cambrian explosion of hard-bodied organisms
528-526 Fossilization of the Chengjiang site
517-515 Fossilization of the Burgess Shale
500-450 Rise of the fish–first vertebrates
430 Waxy coated algae begin to live on land
420 Millipedes have evolved–first land animals
375 The Appalachian mountains are formed via a plate tectonic collision between North America, Africa, and Europe
375 Appearance of primitive sharks
350-300 Rise of the amphibians
350 Primitive insects have evolved
350 Primitive ferns evolve–first plants with roots
300-200 Rise of the reptiles
300 Winged insects have evolved
280 Beetles and weevils have evolved
250 Permian period mass extinction
230 Roaches and termites have evolved
225 Modern ferns have evolved
225 Bees have evolved
200 Pangaea starts to break apart
200 Primitive crocodiles have evolved
200 Appearance of mammals
145 Archaeopteryx walks the Earth
136 Primitive kangaroos have evolved
100 Primitive cranes have evolved
90 Modern sharks have evolved
65 K-T Boundary–extinction of the dinosaurs and beginning of the reign of mammals
60 Rats, mice, and squirrels have evolved
60 Herons and storks have evolved
55 Rabbits and hares have evolved
50 Primitive monkeys have evolved
28 Koalas have evolved
20 Parrots and pigeons have evolved
20-12 The chimpanzee and hominid lines evolve
10-4 Ramapithecus exist
4 Development of hominid bipedalism
4-1 Australopithecus exist
3.5 The Australopithecus Lucy walks the Earth
2 Widespread use of stone tools
2-0.01 Most recent ice age
1.6-0.2 Homo erectus exist
1-0.5 Homo erectus tames fire
0.3 Geminga supernova explosion at a distance of roughly 60 pc–roughly as bright as the Moon
0.2-0.03 Homo sapiens neanderthalensis exist
0.05-0 Homo sapiens sapiens exist
0.04-0.012 Homo sapiens sapiens enter Australia from southeastern Asia and North America from northeastern Asia
0.025-0.01 Most recent glaciation–an ice sheet covers much of the northern United States
0.02 Homo sapiens sapiens paint the Altamira Cave
0.012 Homo sapiens sapiens have domesticated dogs in Kirkuk, Iraq
0.01 First permanent Homo sapiens sapiens settlements
0.01 Homo sapiens sapiens learn to use fire to cast copper and harden pottery
0.006 Writing is developed in Sumeria

2/16/2004 9:22 PM 27 out of 51


Here’s a few miscellaneous items related to writing for your to use if you want. All dates are approximate, and please feel free to correct any errors found.

8,500 BC Inscribed clay tokens used for trading
3,300 BC Oldest writting, Summeria
3,100 BC Egyptian Hieroglyphic
2,600 BC Ink invented (China)
1,500 BC Veda, Sanskrit
1,200 BC oldest Chinese writing
1,199 BC oldest Hebrew
500 BC Oldest book, made out of gold

500 AD Oldest written English
1454 AD Gutenberg Bible
2/17/2004 5:23 AM 38 out of 51

Vis, all the dates on GodlessPagan’s timeline are given in millions of years ago.

MyLifeAsHenry’s date of 8500 BC would be written as “0.0105” (8500+2000 divided by 1 million). As you can plainly see from GLP’s post, MyLifeAsHenry’s date is the least of yor problems…
2/17/2004 5:45 AM 39 out of 51

Here is GodlessPagan’s timeline, converted to Biblical dates through my “Genesis Cubic Formula”:
(all times given in biblical hours before the beginning of Day 7)

Day 2 (120 to 96 hours before Day 7):

99 Formation of the approximately homogeneous solid Earth by planetesimal accretion
97 Melting of the Earth due to radioactive and gravitational heating which leads to its differentiated interior structure as well as outgassing of molecules such as water, methane, ammonia, hydrogen, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide
97 Atmospheric water is photodissociated by ultraviolet light to give oxygen atoms which are incorporated into an ozone layer and hydrogen molecules which escape into space

Day 3 (96 to 72 hours before Day 7):

95 Bombardment of the Earth by planetesimals stops
93 The Earth’s crust solidifies–formation of the oldest rocks found on Earth
93 Condensation of atmospheric water into oceans
91-84 Prokaryotic cell organisms develop
91-84 Beginning of photosynthesis by blue-green algae which releases oxygen molecules into the atmosphere and steadily works to strengthen the ozone layer and change the Earth’s chemically reducing atmosphere into a chemically oxidizing one
79 Rise in the concentration of oxygen molecules stops the deposition of uraninites (since they are soluble when combined with oxygen) and starts the deposition of banded iron formations
75 The Oklo natural fission reactor in Gabon goes into operation

Day 4 (72 to 48 hours before Day 7):

70 The last reserves of reduced iron are used up by the increasing atmospheric oxygen–last banded iron formations
68 Eukaryotic cell organisms develop
68-50 Rise of multicellular organisms
50-49 Fossils of Ediacaran organisms are made
49 Cambrian explosion of hard-bodied organisms

Day 5 (48 to 24 hours before Day 7):

48 Fossilization of the Chengjiang site
48 Fossilization of the Burgess Shale
47-46 Rise of the fish–first vertebrates
45 Waxy coated algae begin to live on land
45 Millipedes have evolved–first land animals
43 The Appalachian mountains are formed via a plate tectonic collision between North America, Africa, and Europe
43 Appearance of primitive sharks
42-40 Rise of the amphibians
42 Primitive insects have evolved
42 Primitive ferns evolve–first plants with roots
40-35 Rise of the reptiles
40 Winged insects have evolved
39 Beetles and weevils have evolved
37 Permian period mass extinction
36 Roaches and termites have evolved
36 Modern ferns have evolved
36 Bees have evolved
35 Pangaea starts to break apart
35 Primitive crocodiles have evolved
35 Appearance of mammals
31 Archaeopteryx walks the Earth
31 Primitive kangaroos have evolved
28 Primitive cranes have evolved
27 Modern sharks have evolved

2/17/2004 5:46 AM 40 out of 51

Day 6 (24 to 0 hours before Day 7):

24 K-T Boundary–extinction of the dinosaurs and beginning of the reign of mammals
23 Rats, mice, and squirrels have evolved
23 Herons and storks have evolved
23 Rabbits and hares have evolved
22 Primitive monkeys have evolved
18 Koalas have evolved
16 Parrots and pigeons have evolved
16-14 The chimpanzee and hominid lines evolve
13-10 Ramapithecus exist
11 Development of hominid bipedalism
10-6 Australopithecus exist
9 The Australopithecus Lucy walks the Earth
8 Widespread use of stone tools
8-1 Most recent ice age
7-3.5 Homo erectus exist
6-5 Homo erectus tames fire
4 Geminga supernova explosion at a distance of roughly 60 pc–roughly as bright as the Moon
3.5-2 Homo sapiens neanderthalensis exist
2-present day Homo sapiens sapiens exist
2-1.1 Homo sapiens sapiens enter Australia from southeastern Asia and North America from northeastern Asia
1.7-1.0 Most recent glaciation–an ice sheet covers much of the northern United States
1.6 Homo sapiens sapiens paint the Altamira Cave
1.1 Homo sapiens sapiens have domesticated dogs in Kirkuk, Iraq
1 First permanent Homo sapiens sapiens settlements
1 Homo sapiens sapiens learn to use fire to cast copper and harden pottery

Day 7 and beyond:

4000 BC – Writing is developed in Sumeria

2/17/2004 5:56 AM 41 out of 51

An important note:

Some of the Biblical dates in the above timeline are obviously a little off. For example, the Cambrian Explosion clearly took place on Day 5, while the above timeline places it at the end of Day 4.

I’ve intentionally left these disperncies between GLP’s data and Genesis, for the sake of scientific honesty and objectivity. Obviously, my model predicts that the dates GLP gave for these troublesome events would be revised when further evidence comes in…
2/17/2004 10:28 PM 45 out of 51

“You’re not referring to Joseph Smith’s alleged golden plates from the Angel Moroni are you? If not, I am quite curious to which book you are referring. ”

Oops, I didn’t see this before. Sorry I didn’t respond earlier.


“The world’s oldest book in the history of mankind written in Etruscan, the language that is now lost, can be seen in Bulgaria’s National Museum of History in Sofia. The rarity consists of 6 pages made of 24-carat gold and fastened together; the pages are covered with text and carry images of a horseman, a mermaid, a lyre and warriors.”

2/18/2004 12:20 AM 46 out of 51

I don’t know what constitues a book but the Vedas were written down (by God supposedly, dictated by man (unlike the Bible, ahem)) on leaves which were sown together. I’m pretty sure at least b/c that’s how we portray them in dance (and Bhrathanatyam has not changed in thousands of years) and I have seen a few of these in museams.


2/19/2004 11:54 PM 51 out of 51

HAHA Henry.

I am still working on the timeline thank you for your input.
I think it is important to establish some nomenclature of time,
thanks to Muckraker and others.

First lets cover the year aspect,

“”The difference in meaning comes about when it matters if the scientist is referring to elapsed time or time before present. For example:

The last ice age was 12 thousand years ago: 12 ka
The Cambrian began 540 million years ago: 540 Ma
The earth was formed 4.5 billion years ago: 4.5 Ga


The last ice age lasted for 5 thousand years: 5 kyr
The Miocene epoch was 18 million years long: 18 Myr
The earth is 4.5 billion years old: 4.5 Gyr

The ‘a’ in ‘ka’, ‘Ma’ and ‘Ga’ is shorthand for ‘annum’, Latin for year.
(Funny I thought it was “annus” in my translator???? -Vis)

In that sense, the two sets of terms would seem to mean the same thing, but using the with two separate senses helps differentiate between the two senses of time I mentioned earlier.””

-Says Muckraker

Therefore I think it appropriate to use this terminology for any thing lets say before the yec timeline… at that point I will revert to the standard “BC” “AD” nomenclature.

Why not “BCE” ie before common era?
Well why take God out of the picture?

2/16/2004 5:25 PM

Bible Zone 2/10/2004

Filed under: Uncategorized — vistronic @ 9:51 pm

title: Bible zone

2/10/2004 2:03 AM 1 out of 182

This is the Bible zone welcome.
Here I would like to discuss Creationism and the Bible.
The Bible is the prime source for much, (if not all) the main ideas of creationism IMHO.
(Of course natural observations also play a factor.)
Speaking for myself one of the main reasons I reject “evolution” is because it goes against my religous teachings AND how I interpret the Bible.
(and frankly it just feels wrong.)
With this in mind I think it is important that we exame what the Bible says in regards to creation.

Genesis 1
1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Well thats a great start, I will be qouting the KJV by the way as that to me “feels right”.

31. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I therefore submit that what God calls good is good.
I do not hold to the framework put forth by Teilhard and others here that CREO’s view creation as evil.

1. God created.
2. It was very good.

Can we all agree on this?


I am working on a Bible timeline I hope to post…..

Genesis 3

17) And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

“cursed is the ground for thy sake;”
This is as close as I can see to creation falling at the fall, but I think here it is talking about man being at odds with it, or not insync, or tilling it…
cursed? Hmmmm I am not sure that fits creation as evil?

I think each received a penalty to look at it objectively. The snake, the woman, the man.

Sexist? I don’t think so. There is a very real effect women have on or over men, I don’t see the point in denying that, BUT each person is accountable for his own behaviour. That said it is easier to smoke pot if someone hands it to you, it is easyer to drink in the Bar then at the church, and it is just a little easier to eat a apple if someone gives it to you… but note this..

“6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”

Very little is said of Adams state of mind at that point..

“And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. 21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25″

This sheds more light on the discussion…

” 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”

One flesh being equal so rejoice!

2/11/2004 1:30 PM 89 out of 182

Hello members,

The Idea that the curse caused the appearance of old age to the earth
is a interesting idea that I had not thought of before, I think in the literal context
a change in structure is indicated but a time warp so to speak is not implied to the best of my current understanding. I will check the Hebrew.

I am working on an Old testament chronology going by established dates given by scholars, the reason is when I study the old testament I like to have some idea of the time line as to when a certain part took place, a order so to speak (more then a locked in date), as the library of books we call the Bible have a overlapping order. This is more a study aid for me, I think others may find it helpful, in regards to this Genesis 1-2 is not given a date by many scholars, as a matter of fact either is the flood.
The term indefinite period of time could apply to the six days of creation with out any stretching the truth according to many, the 7th day of rest some say is still going on! Notice the seventh day is not called the Sabbath at this point, also it has no evening mentioned.

The most interesting statement is,
“These are the generations of the Heaven and Earth”
Generations!? 7- 24 hour days are generations?

That said I don’t dismiss 7 – 24 hour days out of hand it warrants study.
There has been much study in this area, there is no need to dismiss the work of the scholars who have gone before us.

The main thing for me is to read and study the Bible it is….. Fun!

2/13/2004 10:16 AM 142 out of 182

What a interesting conversation.
I would like to share a little of what’s been going on with me in regards to the Bible not to interrupt anything.

Lately after Friar Teilhards admonishments I have been reading the Bible a lot more. I started at Genesis and now I am in the book of psalms I am trying to read straight through to revelations. I have read many if not all the Books before piece meal here and there so now I am on this journey. Currently I am reading the Living Bible as I am trying to read it like a Book, I do of course have many different translations as I like to visit used Book stores.

My main Bible for many years has been the KJV version Holman study Bible though its now falling apart, I think next I will read either the NKJV or RSV or NEB problem not the NIV though.

I use to have a catholic Bible and study books but over the years I have misplaced them, so I am going to the used book store again. Contrary to what many may think I have no aversion to the catholic Bible and such (it includes the apocrypha BTW) I think there are many saved catholic’s, I use to be on the war path against them (I have most if not all the chick tracts and comics lots of anti-catholic ammunition there!) but I have changed my view.

I now think ” If they are not against us, they are for us” as Jesus said in regards to the group casting demons out in his name put they where not one of “them”.

The Bible so far (to me) is more concerned with people getting right with God.

I wonder sometimes if I have offended anybody against that concept by my arrogance and “Fundy” rap.
If I have I am sorry.


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Filed under: Uncategorized — vistronic @ 8:55 pm

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